Drivers and their problems

One of the things that really used to piss me off was my old local Facebook group being full of drivers warning each other about speed cameras. It's a village with something like seven schools in it, it's had young families flocking to it for about ten years now. When I used to suggest that instead of suggesting alternative routes to help drivers continue to speed through residential streets packed with playing children, they should shut the fuck up and let the cameras do thier job as a deterrent, they couldn't work out where I was coming from.

Isn't the default speed limit in urban areas 30mph, even if unsigned. Think there's something about streetlight spacing too.

What an authoritarian notion - a default speed limit?  Here a Scottish Parliament committee rejected a "make it 20mph" proposal on the grounds that "one-size-fits-all" default limits would be unhelpful! (Yes, I still can't let it go).

Oldfatgit wrote:

Isn't the default speed limit in urban areas 30mph, even if unsigned. Think there's something about streetlight spacing too.

It's the street lamps that decide - if there are street lamps spaced 183m (200yd) or less, and no speed limit repeater signs, then the limit is 30mph*. If there are no street lamps and no repeater signs, it's NSL. Anything else, then repeater signs must be in place showing the speed limit regardless of street lamps.

* generally in 30mph areas with street lamps, repeater signs are not permitted, however an exception is made in some areas at the discretion of the local authority, early 2000s when the camera partnerships started and a high volume drivers were being nicked, then a sign on a blue background showing a camera symbol and a "30" in a red circle to remind people that a camera is ahead and the limit is 30.

I went to visit my mother down in Bexhill over the week, and whilst sitting in a fine Italian restaurant by the Delaware I spotted an illuminated 20 sign. I forgot to investigate after. Very full and having enjoyed a Long Man ale. And I mean backlit with LEDs, not lamp above or neon on Perspex.

The driver of the HUGE Audi.

We could believe he was driving at under what he thought was the speed limit of 40mph.

Or, slightly over what many motorists wrongly believe is the acceptable 35mph level at which they are allowed to drive in a 30mph zone.

I will let you decide?

is that still officially  the case though ? I mean it was dont get me wrong the default street lamps = 30mph was definitely a thing I was taught, but I thought because of things like where I live the county council implemented a blanket 30mph limit through all villages in the mid 90s, regardless of street lights or not.

plus with new housing developments popping up everywhere and some quite confusing I think changes in limit where youll be in the 30 in the village, leave the village it becomes NSL, but half a mile later drops to 40 sometimes for safety reasons, sometimes as part of a traffic mitigation plan for the new housing, but the visual cues of the whole stretch of the road is identical.  The actual default had become something more akin to its 30mph unless you see signs telling you otherwise.

I'm fairly sure although I'll accept being wrong if otherwise. 

I think the reason for the repeater signs is so that a "top lawyer" couldn't exploit a loophole whereby a road could be interpreted as NSL if no lighting or repeater signs. So therefore under the letter of the law, anything outside of TSRGD could technically be unenforceable  

Just had a dig around, and 8.3.2 of the Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 says:

8.3.2. Where a 30 mph speed limit is imposed on an unlit road, it is necessary to make an order. In this case it is recommended that 30 mph repeater signs are provided (see 8.3.1).
(see 8.3.4). Where a road subject to a 30 mph limit is lit for only part of its length, it is recommended that a repeater sign for the unlit section when leaving the lit section should be placed at a distance of not more than 100 m from the last street lamp. Where two consecutive street lamps on a lit road are more than 183 m apart (185 m in Scotland and Northern Ireland)
a speed limit order is required as it is not a “restricted road” with repeater signs provided where considered to be appropriate. Where the two lamps are less than 200 m apart it is unlikely that a repeater sign will be necessary.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

I've always thought this was one of the madder laws in the HC. I mean, what driver hooning into some poor hamlet at 67mph (60+10%+1 cos I'm allowed I'm in a car innit) is actually able to measure the distance between street lights? "Oh hang on, that pair is 186m apart, game on, 60 it is".

Law should either be "Streetlights = 30 unless otherwise signed", or always enforced with limit signs. Distances between objects, while passing (even at 30) are impossible to accurately judge.

Not to excuse people given all drivers have to be trained and licenced and there are reminders everywhere.  However IMO if humans just aren't following the rules then we need a rethink.  "Sign it and police it better" isn't the way.  We're clever monkeys and won't just do things we were told if we don't see a reason to or think we won't get caught.  Better to work with human nature.

Hawkinspeter has suggested doing this via the vehicles themselves.  I favour the more expensive but less "police state" vision of roads which naturally reinforce the desired behaviour - which coincidentally ties in with improving active travel infra.  It's the work of generations but:

From Bicycledutch - the Dutch system of (3 types of) monofunctional streets / roads

From NotJustBikes - make the environment cue drivers.

Agreed.
I was in a car recently and the driver said "I know I was speeding just then but the road feels like it should be a forty."
Not defending anything about this, still pissed off tbh, but it is the way many people think.
You can't change peoples' reactions but you can change their environment.

They still have to sign it according to national rules, so while they may have a policy they can only implement it it through nationally agreed signage, such as 30mph repeaters if there are no street lights in addition to limit signs at the start of the restriction.

Changing is exactly what you:d be expected to do. If there is street lighting and you think it is 40 but don't see any repeaters, you should assume you've missed a sign and should reduce your speed. The worst that happens if you are wrong is that you have driven within the speed limit and you can speed up if you then see a repeater.

New rules allow councils not to sign changes to higher speeds, so going from a 30 to 40, they can rely on repeaters.

The tricky one is that you can no longer rely on repeaters in zones. We have a large zone covering several miles of rural roads where there few reminders you are in a 40mph zone. I'm sure a lot of drivers are ignorant of zones and the much reduced signage.

I wonder, is there some reason why if they are driving in a built-up/urben area then people can't assume it is a 30 limit unless they see signage telling them otherwise?

Indeed. Driving at at a suitable speed for the conditions is what all road users should be doing all of the time. Do that properly and you'll unlikely to be driving at a speed that upsets other road users (and above the speed limit) - which, after all, is the only reason for speed limits

Speed limits can also be used to reduce air pollution

I frequently upset other road users by driving at 30mph in a 30 zone...

"Mr Peck said that he had not realised that the speed limit had been changed from 40mph to 30mph down the hill on the A379 towards Billacombe roundabout."

In fact, Street View shows the 40 mph limit repeater signs in place.

In July 2016. They were gone by May 2017.  I think he's been driving on goodwill and luck for long enough to realise the signs had changed.

So once again we have the appeal to incompetence being advanced as a defence:

I wasn't so much speeding as simply unaware of the limit altogether.

Gets me every time!

So he fully deserves two penalties - one for breaking the speed limit, one for driving without due care and attention.

So does the first ticket act as a get out of jail free card for the rest of the day or just that journey?

Mr Blackbird wrote:

In fact, if a body accelerates to a speed in excess of 85 mph, it starts to absorb all light and can turn into a black hole.

You're completely wrong that bodies turn into black holes at 85mph, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get to 88mph and go back in time!